We get letters (It’s a long one)


I got some interesting e-mails and comments over the weekend about my stance that craigslist should eliminate it’s erotic services section. Let’s start with the long boring one from a male craigslist ‘escort’.

Since your blog makes it perfectly clear you can do a better job of discerning what are “legal” or “illegal” services offered in the erotic services section of craigslist, I challenge you to the following test: I will provide you with the legal statue of the state in which I work, the content of my ad, and a synopsis of what is discussed with a client before

services are delivered. Your task will be post that same information & then an explanation of how it qualifies under the state statute as illegal activity WITHOUT relying on conjecture and presumptions. Are you up to the challenge? We’ll see….

1. STATE LAW: Prostitution is performing for hire, or offering or agreeing to perform for hire where there is an exchange of value, any of the following acts: Sexual intercourse; sodomy; or manual or other bodily contact stimulation of the genitals of any person with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desires of the offender or another.

2. CRAIGSLIST AD: Interactive, Sensual, Satisfying, Massage PLUS – m4m Much-deserved, much-needed, and completely satisfying sensual massage. Former USArmy – 5’8″ husky & masculine — tattooed/hairy arms & legs — Just a real guy for your very real pleasure. Interaction Welcome.

Special Attention given to Mature Men, but all ages (18+) welcome. Older? – Fully Appreciated & Respected Bearish, Hairy or Chubby? – All body types accepted Straight/Curious? – Your Limits Completely Respected Married? – DDF, Safe, Clean & Absolutely Discreet

###-###-#### – EMAIL, TXTMSG or CALL for APPT

Available MOST WEEKDAYS after 5PM….or ANYTIME Saturdays & Sundays

INCALL: $60.00/hr; Home or Hotel Outcall: $80.00

3. UPON CLIENT ARRIVAL: There is never any discussion of sex or sexual acts of any kind for payment.

Client is asked whether he agrees to the “Terms of Service” presented in large-type which read, “This is not an offer of prostitution and no fees will ever be solicited or accepted for illegal activity. I AGREE that money exchanged in legal adult recreational services if only for time,

companionship, and general/non-therapeutic massage. I AGREE that anything else that may or may not happen is a matter of personal choice and personal preference between two or more consenting adults of legal age and is not expected or included in the services provided for fee. I AGREE that the services provided for fee do not in any way include or relate to performing for hire, or offering or agreesing to perform for hire where there is an exchange of value, any of the following acts: sexual intercourse; sodomy; or manual or other bodily contact stimulation of the genitals of any person with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desires of that person or

another.”

4. SERVICES DELIVERED: As stated in the ad….massage.

5. SESSION ENDED: Clients pays (and hopefully tips).

FROM THE ABOVE INFORMATION ONLY can you explain how anything illegal has been offered or has taken place?? If you can’t, I bet you won’t have the guts to post it on your blog. Have fun!

You’re right. I can’t say with 100% certainty whether or not your services are illegal or not without actually using your services, which I wouldn’t but that’s just my personal preference.

However if I were law enforcement in your community your ad would definitely draw my attention.

Buzzwords like Massage PLUS are a tip off. The fact that you posted the typical escort ‘this is not prostitution..blah blah blah, would lead me to believe that’s exactly what it is.Not to mention when you posted I AGREE that anything else that may or may not happen is a matter of personal choice and personal preference between two or more consenting adults of legal age and is not expected or included in the services provided for fee also leads me to believe you’re offering an illegal service. You know that argument never holds up in court right?

If your massages are so legitimate then why are they posted in the erotic services section? Do you have a professional massage license in your state? Have you ever been arrested for your ‘massages’?

The next I received as a comment on my post about Jon who was harrassed by the ‘hobbyists’ of the erotic services section for flagging ads…

So you’ve got nothing better to do than this, huh? I have no problem with you having your own religious morals. Just don’t try and force them down my throat!

If you go back and read that post you’ll notice that religion is never mentioned anywhere. It’s got nothing to do with religious morals but everything to do with prostitution being illegal. I’ll stop when one of two things happens, when prostitution is made legal in the other 49 states, or when craigslist eliminates the erotic services section.

This next one is from a repeat customer who I’ve ignored up until now. I figured since I was addressing hobbyists and escorts I might as well address a comment from the cult of craig. I received it as a comment on my post about the journalist who took out craigslist escorts on actual dates.

So you are a judge and jury and human expert?

What is the objective of this website?

You need to provide a page telling your tale,

or you ware just a whiney person, who looks

a the world and complians,,,but has NO SOLUTION,,,

what is your purpaose?

First I’d recommend that you switch to the Firefox browser. It comes with a spell checker. Secondly I thought the objective of this site was pretty obvious. It says so in the tagline, “The craigslist crime blotter“. Do you know what a crime blotter is? A lot of local newspapers in the US have a section that’s called the police blotter which mentions calls that the police have had. That’s sort of what I do except all the crimes here deal with craigslist or other classified sites. And I have three basic solutions that I’ve mentioned repeatedly that would go a long way to reducing crime on craigslist. 1. Make users have a public profile on craigslist. 2. Eliminate the erotic services section. 3. Don’t do business on craigslist.

Hell, craigslist should be paying me a consulting fee.

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Comments 32

  • That last one left a ton of comments that all said the same thing.

  • Maybe the last person spends so much time on Craiglist they never see crime blotters. I love when people ask what the “point” of a website is, I always say “to get you to click my adsense”

  • So it is all about adsense and money?? WoW!!!

    You just admitted that you are using CRIME to make money for yourself, and you are proud of that?

    Thus IF your stated objectives are met, you will close this website, and stop making that money?

    As I suspected you are making money on the misery of others, ouch,,,it is your karma.

    But it is a free country,,,oh wait ..if you had you way…you would force your values on everyone, can you say BEIJING?

  • I’m sure he can, sir, even though you can’t spell it.

    Awareness of certain activities, such as the numerous scams, can help reduce their profitability and so lessen their prevalence.

    Making money off crime and making money off reporting that crime are very different things. One does not encourage murder by reporting it. Reporters’ money comes from people who seek to be informed or entertained.

    By the way, people can have multiple motivations for a given course of action. They’re clever that way.

  • Ok, first, I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t say anything with 100% certainty, but I don’t think a prosecutor would have too hard of a time getting a conviction under his state law.

    To start with, someone looking for erotic services who sees this ad offering interactive sensual massages for your very real pleasure and satisfaction is going to think that the guy is a male prostitute looking for johns. And since – as I understand it – most courts accept or use the “reasonable person” standard of interpretation (how would any reasonable person interpret it) I don’t think he’s going to get very far – in spite of his disclaimer – by trying to argue that he’s just offering massages.

    I dunno – maybe his state is different, but, disclaimer aside, that ad is pretty damn blatant about what he’s offering.

  • And really, how much of a tip does it take to get you from just a “sensual massage” to massage with release? If your local PD set up a sting and roped this guy in I bet they’d have no trouble getting a conviction. But hey from the sound of it he might do well in prison.

  • “So it is all about adsense and money?? WoW!!!

    You just admitted that you are using CRIME to make money for yourself, and you are proud of that?

    Thus IF your stated objectives are met, you will close this website, and stop making that money? “

    Can you read? I was saying my Red Alerts) blog is at the is for profit, as are my other blogs and affiliate marketing links.

    But Biejing (learn to spell, moron) are you saying people with blogs shouldn’t make money? What about all this freedom you’re whining about?

    Also Trench isn’t forcing his “values” on anyone, hooking is illegal and he has a blog that acts as a crime blotter. Karma isn’t what you think it means either.

    Sorry you’re offended by people making it more difficult for you to contact drug addicts over the Internet for sex. But you could always do what Johns have done for years and hit the bad parts of twon.

  • “Awareness of certain activities, such as the numerous scams, can help reduce their profitability and so lessen their prevalence.”

    …actually it only gives others NEW ideas on how to commit NEW crimes, which allows “reporters of crimes” more money, so you are part of the problem.

    You need to look in the mirror, and ask yourself, “Do like what you see?”.

  • “But Biejing (learn to spell, moron)”

    It is funny how the small minded focus on spelling versus the point at hand.

    Name calling is another sign of a small mind.

    AND THEN, without fail, the small minded do this …. they spell wrong too … “bad parts of twon.”

    LOL…you are funny, and small minded.

  • Would’nt it be better to focus on legalizing the “OLDEST PROFESSION”. Or is it a better idea to spend your time on giving criminal new ideas?

    Selling sex is NEVER going away. Making it illeagal only makes the system ( like this website ) money. If it was legal( as it is in many parts of the world ) it would be healthier.

    I do not do drugs and I have NEVER bought a girl.

    I am only concerned about your greed, and preyful ways.

    PS

    And to suggest seomone go to “bad parts of twon.” ( LOL) you are mean spirited and an evil human.

  • “someone looking for erotic services who sees this ad offering interactive sensual massages for your very real pleasure and satisfaction is going to think that the guy is a male prostitute “

    In criminal actions the defendant must be found guilty of committing the actual act beyond a reasonable doubt, not just guilty of being suspected of engaging in the act (i.e. “is going to think…”). It appears from the state law where he lives that it would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he actually perfomred for hire, or offered or agreeed to perform for hire some illegal sexual act. Otherwise he is simply offering legitimate sensual massage that does not involve any such illegal sexual acts.

  • That’s interesting then. Attempts to increase awareness succeed, but among potential victims and potential victimizers alike. So the race is on. But, a criminal who evades capture can strike many times, whereas a victim needs only be taken advantage of a single time. The criminals and potential criminals get a strong headstart in the race generated by awareness. Amazingly enough, a commenter on this site has given me something to think about. Thank you.But would you say that the same logic applies to activities in which both parties involved are criminals, such as prostitution, the other main topic here? And would you say that it inspires violent crime as well, such as that described on News of Doom?By the way, when I look in the mirror, I rarely like what I see, as I need to shave more often.

  • That’s interesting then. Attempts to increase awareness succeed, but among potential victims and potential victimizers alike. So the race is on. But, a criminal who evades capture can strike many times, whereas a victim needs only be taken advantage of a single time. The criminals and potential criminals get a strong headstart in the race generated by awareness. Amazingly enough, a commenter on this site has given me something to think about. Thank you.

    But would you say that the same logic applies to activities in which both parties involved are criminals, such as prostitution, the other main topic here? And would you say that it inspires violent crime as well, such as that described on News of Doom?

    By the way, when I look in the mirror, I rarely like what I see, as I need to shave more often.

  • Just to toss my two cents in here,

    Read the law, read the ad. Could convict him in seconds, the fact that the ad was pre written with the intent of ‘other activities’ going on, gives proof that he’s nothing but a whore looking for ‘tip’. Not that I fault him for being a whore, I don’t. I DO fault him for being a tacky, annoying whore though.

    Second- most bloggers put ads up to cover the costs of blogging. We’re actually using ads to pay for the space where idiots like to strut in and insult us. You go away, we don’t have to waste bandwidth on your drivel (and it also saves everyone else from having to worry about your ‘stupid’ wearing off on them.)

    Third- HI ROB!!!!

    The criminals have always had the upper hand, mainly because dumbfounded clowns making excuses for their behavior by coming up with little senseless theories like ‘The criminals and potential criminals get a strong headstart in the race generated by awareness’. Awareness takes the advantage away from the criminal, because it serves as a warning to society. Example:

    The boogieman is outside your house, waiting for you to come out in order to scare you senseless (not a big job, but still interesting). I KNOW he’s out there, and out of sheer niceness, call and warn you about it. Thus, giving you the upper hand, and taking away his needed element of surprise.

    Idiots Trench… you really gather some winners here, don’t ya?

  • Lilo (or anyone else), here’s your chance to shine. Lilo posed the challenge herself: “Read the law, read the ad. Could convict him in seconds….”

    If you were the police officer testifying in court, you have a few simple questions to answer to show the proof that something illegal has occurred. As you said, it should only take you “seconds” to present your proof:

    1. Officer, when you posed as a client, did the defendant perform sexual intercourse, sodomy or stimulation of your genitals with you?

    2. Officer, what exactly did the defendant say that was an offer to perform sexual intercourse, etc.?

    3. Officer, what exactly did the defendant say that was an agreement to perform sexual intercourse, sodomy or genital stimulation with you.

    4. Officer, did the defendant ever say that “sensual” meant “sexual intercourse”, “sodomy”, or “genital stimulation”? If not, why did you assume that is what it meant?

  • Ok,

    what about colonics?

    Should those be regulated?, cuz they are not.

    Colonics are VERY good for you, and many Doctors use the method, although not many prescribe it. But if you wanna look into it, it is similar….or is it?

    I mean there is a tube, and private body parts, and money exchanged, and bodily fluid…so what about that?…where is the line?

  • oopssy, did I just give the “evil doers” an idea on how to get around the law? They can say…”I was giving him a medical exam”.

    The point is, lets legalize prostitution like in Germany, and Australia and rural Nevada, and Amsterdam, and…and in Dodge City.

    What exactly do you think Miss Kitty did with Matt Dillon? Some humans, and woman, are just horny, and they are happy to pay and be paid.

    Charlie Sheen did not pay for the sex, he paid so they would leave after the sex, without the grief of a girlfriend. Sick?..I dont know. But I do know CL did not start the fire, they are a platform for what people do anyway. I will say I do NOT hire whores, but I have known some woman acted the part, but did not charge.

    what about them?

    I will say this…the AMPs are a REAL PROBLEM, that is BS. Those oriental girls are kidnapped and that is human trafficing, but if a “good ole” USA lady, of her own free will, really wants to be like….uh … the Spice girls and/ or Paris and Britaney, who is to blame?

    Hollywoood? Society, thier clits, are they juts horny? SHould we cut off the clits, like they do in Afrika?

    “Tell me what you want what you really really want”..I despie the spice girls for what they did to young girls,,, once again greed.

    ok, that was a ramble, must be bed time..

    “rosey you’ur allright, you wear my ring….LOL

  • Lilo, I resent that. Small amounts of open-mindedness and idiocy are quite different. “Something to think about” is intended to imply an effort to see any flaws in the concept. And I’ve thought about it, and I do see some flaws. Furthermore, I recognize that I lack some information crucial to my understanding.

    Now, I may well be wrong, and I invite you and your colleagues to correct me, but I think that the victims of these scams tend to be less internet savvy than the average, while the scammers tend to be at least moderately competent. Less savvy users of the internet tend to use it for fewer tasks, and thus have less chance to gain awareness of the existence of scammers, while scammers are more likely to learn from others mistakes. Please correct any misconceptions I may have.

    By the way, I realize that I may come off as sarcastic. I genuinely apologize, as that is not my intention.

  • legitimate sensual massage

    There’s an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

  • @colo

    Colonics don’t do shit, except wash the shit out of your ass, which is neither good nor bad for you. To quote Penn (of Penn &amp Teller):

    “[colonic patient] would have just shit out all that shit tomorrow.” (possible slight paraphrase).

    Colons don’t get cancer because of shit, they’re made to be full of shit! Kinda like someone posting here…

    So yes, I am all for criminalizing colonics, because they are placebo/pseudoscience/a scam. For another example of ‘a scam’ see: everything else on this site.

  • TRENCH SAYS: “legitimate sensual massage….There’s an oxymoron if I ever saw one.”

    Trench, must you rely on one-liners devoid of intelligence without explaining any reasoning as to how it is an oxymoron as you claim?

    A legitimate sensual massage involves soft lighting usually by candles, gentle music, perhaps scented oils. The masseur is dressed and the client is appropriately draped. Instead of “deep-tissue” massage, the masseur gently relaxes the muscles and uses gentle, sometimes feather-light, touches and caresses over the skin. At no point is there any contact with the genitals or any sexual act. The experience is highly sensual and erotic, but in no way ever vulgar or inappropriate.

  • Vega, colonics are actually quite helpful if you are constipated or have inflamed hemrhoids. They do serve a purpose &amp disposable kits for that purpose are sold in pharmacies.

  • Yet no health insurance provider in the country will cover your colonic. Funny, how that works with scams.

    Oh, and as far as dealing with the dreaded hemorrhoids, there are some great how-to wikis on proper wiping technique. I assume. If you’re feeling backed up there is always high fiber cereal and prune juice. YUM!

  • Lilo! Fancy meeting you here.

    Trench has the best comments. Of course the fact that he’s mentioned in the media helps. I just wonder why every child molester, John and drug user always gets their panties in a bunch when some poor blogger wants to make a little money for his hard work. It’s like making money legitimately is wrong, but paying for sex is O.K.

  • Ronnie-

    By your logic if I offer a person “rock” instead of crack on CL ad the cops could never convict me because of my clever code.

    In court why wouldn’t the prosecution just call a witness to testify to the fact that sensual massage is a euphemism for sex?

  • Rob, I think you have a good point if in fact it is widely accepted that “sensual massage” is a euphemism for sex. But I don’t think that is the case, except primarily among readers of CCL. The term “sensual” is thrown around quite liberally in the marketing of many products it seems almost anything can be sold for its “sex appeal”, even toasters. Cars are even described as “sexy”. So by the same logic, if you drive one of those cars, it can be assumed you are a slut.

    However, I don’t think it is the case that the mere use of words “sensual massage” are accepted as the equivalent to sex or would stand alone as enough to get a conviction in court. That is why police still have to gather solid evidence of the actual crime. With prostitution, they have to show there was a clear understanding by both parties that it was an offer of sex for money.

    The news accounts that Trench posts never mention how many others the police tried find reason to arrest, but who were smart enough to know what questions to answer and the right way to answer them to stay out of legal trouble. The headline and story is not as attractive when it says:

    “police arrested 7 alleged prostitutes after replying to 112 ads from craigslist.”

  • But that’s because depending on the state the prosecution may not want to prosecute cases that aren’t open and shut. So cops rely on the hookers to call them back and money to exchange hands.

    But if the state had unlimited resources including accounts to pay for “expert” witness testimony don’t you think “sensual massages” would be quite easy to prosecute?

  • “But if the state had unlimited resources including accounts to pay for “expert” witness testimony don’t you think “sensual massages” would be quite easy to prosecute?”

    Now you’re just exhibiting a case of MSU (making sh*t up). Any case is “open and shut” if they really have the evidence. The problem they run into is when they try to pretend something is evidence, but really have none.

  • OK you win, there’s no way any of us can be sure sensual massages offered in the erotic services section of CL involves sex. It’s too clever a scheme! By the gods it’s opened up a whole array of new horizons to me. I’m going to put up an ad saying I’ll “rub out” someone for $10,000 using my “heater” and the cops will NEVER be able to be sure that I’m offering to kill someone. It’s genius!

  • You say, “there’s no way any of us can be sure sensual massages offered in the erotic services section of CL involves sex.” Actually you can. When the police do their job properly and get the necessary evidence to substantiate that prostitution has taken place (as you say, “money to exchange hands” ) then they have a good bust. It is important to everyone’s civil liberties (the innocent and the guilty alike) that the system places that burden of proof on law enforcement and prosecutors. We would not be a free society if that were not the case. If that were not the case, then Yes, you could simply arrest and convict someone for placing a sensual massage ad on the internet even if no crime was ever committed and not bother with proving the case of prostitution. You can probably name some countries that operate in that way. We don’t want to be one of those countries where you can be arrested on a suspicion and detained in prison until you can prove your innocence.

    Are the sensual/erotic massage ads on CL advertising prostitution? PROBABLY

    What establishes the necessary proof? THE LAW (not public opinon or Trench’s opinion)

    What does the law require? IN THE CASE ABOVE:

    1. Actually performing sexual intercourse, sodomy, or genital stimulation for money OR

    2. Offering to perform sexual intercourse, sodomy, or genital stimulation for money OR

    3. Agreeing to perform sexual intercourse, sodomy, or gential stimulation for money.

    I don’t know of any court that would look favorably on a police officer actually engaging in sexual intercourse with a prostitute or getting a handjob from a prostitute to have the necessary evidence to convict. Instead they have to rely on getting an offer to do one of the above acts for payment or an agreement from the suspect to do one of the above acts for payment. It is a difficult challenge they face to build a good case, and it blackens the reputation of all police when the few unscrupulous ones fabricate evidence or lie under oath about what took place. Still the high standards of evidence are necessary to protect our civil liberties from tyranny.

    If their strategy of “stings” is effective, then there will soon be noone left posting their erotic services ads. Unfortunately, it is not an effective strategy, and most of the mature and intelligent escorts know how to steer clear of legal entanglements. Despite the expense of the sting operatons, however, it is worthwhile for the rare instances when it uncovers human trafficking or exploitation of minors. For those reasons alone they should continue, and it appears the presence of craigslist is making it possible for law enforcement to more frequently discover those crimes.

  • Obviously you aren’t that well read on sting operations, but the arrest usually happens as soon as the hooker makes a grab for the cop’s pecker. Call it the ‘burden of proof’. I could go for a colonic right now.

  • Obviously you aren’t that well read on sting operations, but the arrest usually happens as soon as the hooker makes a grab for the cop’s pecker.

    Interesting. I have done numerous internet searches for information on how sting operations work &amp never found any information like that. I figured I would have to go to court as an observer to hear the actual testimony or obtain court transcripts. However, if there are any internet links you can point us to that will substantiate your claim it would be most helpful in proving whether the rumors are true or not. If you just invented the information, then of course don’t bother.

    I would note however that a person I know who was not involved in prostitution, but cruising a local park for a quickie did get arrested for attempting sexual contact in a public place. However, he never said anything to the officer agreeing to any such act and the officer fabricated a tale that he had reached for the officer’s genitals. The judge saw that the officer’s tale was bull-sh*t and dismissed the case.

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